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Jameslofton
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« Reply #525 on: December 04, 2017, 09:50:50 PM »

Yes...the viewer is allowed to reach a conclusion....but they're not expecting the viewers to go off the rails on a crazy train either.

You're taking certain abilities given to him in later films by people who had nothing to do with the original vision and giving him those same powers in the first few films. Jason Goes To Hell?!? Really? They wanted to distance themselves from the original franchise yet you're taking his new powers back to that story.  THis reminds me of those Halloween fans who attempt to take that absurd Thorn storyline and place it in the first three Myers films to give him a new method to his madness. Why they think its a good idea to take a concept that was literally made up as they went along and use it to fuel Myers' motives I don't have the slightest clue.


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I think it's always been apart of the films explaining how Jason is able to recover from such damage, return from the dead ect.
Always? This resurrection/Zombie Jason concept was not there at the beginning. It was added later just as a way to easily explain the reason for a new sequel.

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What were her reasons for killing the counselors if Jason never drowned?
Good question....and its one they might have tried to answer had they known a sequel a year would get pumped out of the story.

Having said that....its a question that can help explain Pamela's motivations and mental state. Has nothing to do with Jason's motives. That's a whole different ball of wax.


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I think Pamela may have responsible for Mrs. Jarvis death. I think she threw Rob though the window because Jason was clearly shown walking towards the Jarvis house without Rob's corpse.
There's nothing in that film(or prior films) to indicate this is possible. Not even a slight hint that she's alive or her ghostly presence has become a mass murderer. You've taken one scene meant as a lame carbon copy jump scare and twisted it to the point there's now a second killer at Crystal Lake.

There's a reason these types of fantasies are kept in fan fiction/comic books.
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Necu25
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« Reply #526 on: December 05, 2017, 01:31:48 PM »

Yes...the viewer is allowed to reach a conclusion....but they're not expecting the viewers to go off the rails on a crazy train either.
Yet somehow that doesn't apply to a woman being dragged into the water by a ghost.Cheesy
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You're taking certain abilities given to him in later films by people who had nothing to do with the original vision and giving him those same powers in the first few films. Jason Goes To Hell?!? Really? They wanted to distance themselves from the original franchise yet you're taking his new powers back to that story.  THis reminds me of those Halloween fans who attempt to take that absurd Thorn storyline and place it in the first three Myers films to give him a new method to his madness. Why they think its a good idea to take a concept that was literally made up as they went along and use it to fuel Myers' motives I don't have the slightest clue.
Why are you're criticizing fans for making up a concept when your doing the same with this ghost idea? As far as I know the entire Friday the 13th franchise never mentions ghosts.  
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Always? This resurrection/Zombie Jason concept was not there at the beginning. It was added later just as a way to easily explain the reason for a new sequel.
The first movie strongly suggested that Jason drowned. Even if you don't hold to that idea then explain how Jason was able to take the machete to the shoulder, getting hanged, axe to the head etc and kept coming. Do you think a man could take that kind of damage or is the viewer to believe that Jason posses some type of supernatural abilities?  
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There's nothing in that film(or prior films) to indicate this is possible. Not even a slight hint that she's alive or her ghostly presence has become a mass murderer. You've taken one scene meant as a lame carbon copy jump scare and twisted it to the point there's now a second killer at Crystal Lake.
That's not entirely true. There's a deleted scene that showed the decapitated Pamela's eyes opening after the events of part 2. It was only cut because the scene lacked realism.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 01:42:42 PM by Necu25 » Logged
Jameslofton
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« Reply #527 on: December 05, 2017, 05:57:02 PM »

Yet somehow that doesn't apply to a woman being dragged into the water by a ghost.Cheesy


We've been over the reason for that scene's existence.

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Why are you're criticizing fans for making up a concept when your doing the same with this ghost idea? As far as I know the entire Friday the 13th franchise never mentions ghosts. 
You're accusing me of making up the ghost idea?!? You and Rich were just talking about it!

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As far as Mrs. Voorhees in the water, I interpret that as her spirit. I think the area is haunted by her ghost.

That's a powerful haunting besides why aren't the murdered victims haunting the area? I prefer the supernatural explanation/book of the dead approach. I think Jason drowned but was brought back via Pamela's sacrificing of the counselors. I think Jason was doing the same by killing Alice and bringing her to the altar and then sacrificing the trainees. Jason was revived at the end of Part 1 just as Pamela was revived at the end of part 3.
 

I was simply responding to that. Nowhere in my post history have I ever claimed they are ghosts.

You have his mother killing people in later sequels. Considering the fact she was decapitated, if you don't believe in this ghost crap, I guess you think she's stumbling around without a head.

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The first movie strongly suggested that Jason drowned. Even if you don't hold to that idea then explain how Jason was able to take the machete to the shoulder, getting hanged, axe to the head etc and kept coming. Do you think a man could take that kind of damage or is the viewer to believe that Jason posses some type of supernatural abilities?
He could've easily survived his wounds in II. People have also survived hangings. Chris was not a professional executioner. People have also survived terrible wounds to the head. It's unlikely but it is realistically possible.

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That's not entirely true.
Yes it is.

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There's a deleted scene that showed the decapitated Pamela's eyes opening after the events of part 2. It was only cut because the scene lacked realism.
I'm aware of that and the fact they didn't use it because it lacks realism reinforces my point.

You cant use discarded scenes. Every film has discarded scenes. Stuff left on the cutting room floor does not get to become canon.


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Necu25
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« Reply #528 on: December 06, 2017, 01:46:24 PM »

We've been over the reason for that scene's existence.
 You're accusing me of making up the ghost idea?!? You and Rich were just talking about it!
 I was simply responding to that. Nowhere in my post history have I ever claimed they are ghosts.
I noted that theme of the Friday the 13th has nothing to do with ghosts and was based on the supernatural. You chimed in against that idea which indicates that you support the ghost idea, no?
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You have his mother killing people in later sequels. Considering the fact she was decapitated, if you don't believe in this ghost crap, I guess you think she's stumbling around without a head.
Pamela clearly had an attached head in part 3. I took the scene as Pamela was recently revived and seeking revenge against Chris in the same way Jason did against Alice. That's the beauty of these films, they are open to interpretation from one scene. Maybe it's stretch to have Pamela killing in part 4 but it's not out of the question. In any case the film makers explicitly showed Jason walking towards the Jarvis house without Rob's corpse and that opens the possibility for Pamela. 
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He could've easily survived his wounds in II. People have also survived hangings. Chris was not a professional executioner. People have also survived terrible wounds to the head. It's unlikely but it is realistically possible.
If we're speaking realistically all these wounds are fatal. The machete to the shoulder in part 2 would've have severed the subclavian artery, death would have followed very quickly. What is depicted in Part 3 was a drop hanging no one is going to survive that nor having an axe lodged into the brain. Again, the series has relied on a supernatural approach early on. As Paul said Jason drowned.   
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I'm aware of that and the fact they didn't use it because it lacks realism reinforces my point.
You cant use discarded scenes. Every film has discarded scenes. Stuff left on the cutting room floor does not get to become canon.
Now just because of scene was cut doesn't mean it didn't provide useful information to the context of the movie, simply Google important deleted scenes. Unfortunately the driving force isn't additional clarity in movies but time and money.


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Violetlvr
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Gators bitches better be wearin Jimmys


« Reply #529 on: December 06, 2017, 06:06:13 PM »

Part 3 is great, but I only don't get why they didn't have it have another character, I'm saying, it would've been cool to have a new wave character in this one, but hey, that's just my idea
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Jameslofton
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« Reply #530 on: December 06, 2017, 06:55:04 PM »

I noted that theme of the Friday the 13th has nothing to do with ghosts and was based on the supernatural. You chimed in against that idea which indicates that you support the ghost idea, no?
Ghosts are supernatural!

No...there's nothing to indicate I support any ghost ideas. I like the earlier films because they are much more realistic than later sequels. To insert ghosts into that would do the exact opposite.

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Pamela clearly had an attached head in part 3. I took the scene as Pamela was recently revived and seeking revenge against Chris in the same way Jason did against Alice.
You're taking that scene literally? How do you revive a person who was decapitated, place the head back on the rotted corpse, and then turn it into a killing machine?


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Maybe it's stretch to have Pamela killing in part 4 but it's not out of the question.
Yes it is out of the question and there's no maybes about it...it IS a stretch. For starters she wasn't included in the storyline. Just because Jason doesn't carry every corpse doesn't mean his dead mother who is no longer part of the storyline is his accomplice to mass murder.


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If we're speaking realistically all these wounds are fatal.
No they are not. Are they potentially fatal? Yes. Just about any wound has the potential to be fatal, even if by infection. Every single wound he endures in II and III is survivable. People have survived hangings, severe shoulder wounds, and knives driven into their skull. Have you ever watched the series Trauma: Life in the ER?


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Again, the series has relied on a supernatural approach early on. As Paul said Jason drowned.   
Or did he drown? If the original film is held up as a stand alone, yeah he drowned....or his mother is completely insane and they simply never opened the window to this fact. The fact that II exists and was unable to be consistent with the motivations of the original does not mean there's a supernatural element to the story. It just means they weren't very creative in following it up.

Yes in later sequels they go to the supernatural well because they have to in the desire for more sequels but by that point it is F13 in name only....it is far removed from the initial story being told.


You're right...films are open to interpretation but you're giving him(and now his mother) the power(s) given to him in later sequels and having it materialize in the first couple films. Why not go whole hog and have him be a Zombie in II? It's not any more outlandish than reviving his decapitated dead mother and making her the second killer in IV.
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Necu25
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« Reply #531 on: December 07, 2017, 04:41:28 PM »

Ghosts are supernatural!

No...there's nothing to indicate I support any ghost ideas. I like the earlier films because they are much more realistic than later sequels. To insert ghosts into that would do the exact opposite.
 You're taking that scene literally? How do you revive a person who was decapitated, place the head back on the rotted corpse, and then turn it into a killing machine?

Ghosts are paranormal not supernatural. This is the Friday the 13th realm we're talking about. How are you even questioning the logic in Pamela being revived when we have Jason coming back from drowning, hanging, axe to the head, rotting in grave etc?
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Yes it is out of the question and there's no maybes about it...it IS a stretch. For starters she wasn'tincluded in the storyline. Just because Jason doesn't carry every corpse doesn't mean his dead mother who is no longer part of the storyline is his accomplice to mass murder.

Jason often moves bodies off screen but that's not what is shown. Once Rob is killed until his corpse comes though the window, we know where Jason is located. There was only one instance where Jason could move the body and he was clearly shown without it. Did Rob's corpse simply walk over to the Jarvis house? Even in the Final Chapter there is a hint of Pamela being resurrected. When it shows Pamela's grave it looks to have been exhumed recently supporting the idea that Jason recovered her body. Besides Chris was terrorized by a man so why would she mention or have any knowledge about a lady in a lake unless she was attacked by Pamela as shown?
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No they are not. Are they potentially fatal? Yes. Just about any wound has the potential to be fatal, even if by infection. Every single wound he endures in II and III is survivable. People have survived hangings, severe shoulder wounds, and knives driven into their skull. Have you ever watched the series Trauma: Life in the ER?

 I don't recall the scenes showing Jason receiving emergency medical care. Let's see the prognosis of a machete in the shoulder severing the subclavian artery as shown in part 2:
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Subclavian Artery:
Unconsciousness 2 seconds, death 3.5 seconds
http://realfighting.com/unconsciousness_and_death.php

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Subclavian Artery: Approx 2-20 minutes. The doctors also noted: “this is a special circumstance anatomically because this vessel is protected by the clavicle and the first rib (sandwiched between them) if the Subclavian artery bleeds, the only way to compress it and repair it is to open the chest by thoracotomy. You cannot compress it. Patients usually die on the scene or en-route to hospital.
https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/55220/exsanguination-time-from-damage-to-major-arteries

I included two links I think first was supposed to show death at 3.5 minutes. Interestingly Part 2 had Jason losing consciousnesses in the span the link shows. Again, death would have followed very quickly. I'm not aware of anyone surviving a drop hanging. People have survived all types of horrendous wounds to the head but we have to assume that the emts and field coroner would have verified Jason was dead during the investigation and he was revived enroute to the hospital. In any case, a normal human could no take anywhere that kind of damage without treatment and keep coming without the supernatural approach.
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Jameslofton
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« Reply #532 on: December 07, 2017, 08:35:04 PM »

Ghosts are paranormal not supernatural.
Tomato, Tomhato. There's a transparent, razor thin line between paranormal and supernatural. You're attempting to split hairs at this point.


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This is the Friday the 13th realm we're talking about. How are you even questioning the logic in Pamela being revived when we have Jason coming back from drowning, hanging, axe to the head, rotting in grave etc?
There's a huge difference between her being beheaded and being resurrected by you and Jason suffering the wounds he did in the first films. You're now moving the goal post by trying to act like I'm referring to later films in the series with the "rotting in grave" reference.

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Jason often moves bodies off screen but that's not what is shown. Once Rob is killed until his corpse comes though the window, we know where Jason is located. There was only one instance where Jason could move the body and he was clearly shown without it. Did Rob's corpse simply walk over to the Jarvis house?
Of course it didn't walk over there although with the magical powers you give headless Pamela and inserting her into sequels, you might as well go whole hog and have the victims attain these powers as well.

Its called bad editing. Just because a scene lacks a bit of consistency doesn't mean they're trying to insinuate his mother is back from the dead.

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Even in the Final Chapter there is a hint of Pamela being resurrected. When it shows Pamela's grave it looks to have been exhumed recently supporting the idea that Jason recovered her body.
There's no hint of resurrection. None...zilch...nada. For the sake of this discussion let's take that literally and assume Jason is a blend of Ed Gein and Norman Bates. It still doesn't insinuate resurrection. If it does anything, it gives us a brief glimpse into Jason's psychological makeup. He has some mommy issues. Just because someone has mommy issues doesn't mean they brought mommy back from the dead.


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Besides Chris was terrorized by a man so why would she mention or have any knowledge about a lady in a lake unless she was attacked by Pamela as shown?
Do we really have to go over that a third time? It's not rocket science. Go watch the end of the original and then the scene with Chris. It's obvious what they were doing.


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I don't recall the scenes showing Jason receiving emergency medical care.
I never said he did receive emergency medical care.

You're trying to have it both ways. Your supernatural fantasy is allowed to happen offscreen but anything that goes against it must have scenes to show it occurred.

I don't need links showing how he would've died. Since we cant recall scenes showing medical care, we also cant recall how serious or deep these wounds really were.
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Necu25
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« Reply #533 on: December 08, 2017, 06:52:24 PM »

Tomato, Tomhato. There's a transparent, razor thin line between paranormal and supernatural. You're attempting to split hairs at this point.

Why not just admit you were wrong instead of attempting to save face? The fact is there is a clear distinction between the two terms.
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The terms “paranormal” and “supernatural” are often tossed around to mean the same thing—something we don’t understand. They’re actually two separate terms, though. “Paranormal” refers to something that’s not understood by current scientific knowledge; there’s the potential that something paranormal will someday be explained scientifically, and there’s a likelihood there’s a good, natural explanation for it. “Supernatural” refers to a phenomenon that is beyond our capability to understand, now and simply forever, because it just doesn’t operate under our rules.
/http://knowledgenuts.com/2014/02/20/difference-between-paranormal-and-supernatural/

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There's a huge difference between her being beheaded and being resurrected by you and Jason suffering the wounds he did in the first films. You're now moving the goal post by trying to act like I'm referring to later films in the series with the "rotting in grave" reference.

Why are you applying limits to supernatural resurrection? Anyhow Jason drowned as a boy, his body was never recovered so his body was rotting in the water for a long time before being resurrected.
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Of course it didn't walk over there although with the magical powers you give headless Pamela and inserting her into sequels, you might as well go whole hog and have the victims attain these powers as well.

Its called bad editing. Just because a scene lacks a bit of consistency doesn't mean they're trying to insinuate his mother is back from the dead.

Now that you mention it Shelly did survive for an incredible amount time with that terrible slashed throat. Bad editing only applies if we consider  the production side otherwise it's just an excuse. As the viewer we are in another dimension apart from production. We're shown Jason without Rob's body, how one interprets it getting to the Jarvis it up to them but the door remains open for Pamela.   
 
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There's no hint of resurrection. None...zilch...nada. For the sake of this discussion let's take that literally and assume Jason is a blend of Ed Gein and Norman Bates. It still doesn't insinuate resurrection. If it does anything, it gives us a brief glimpse into Jason's psychological makeup. He has some mommy issues. Just because someone has mommy issues doesn't mean they brought mommy back from the dead.

We shown an altar with her head and shirt. We're shown her grave that looked to be recently exhumed. Then we see her attacking Chris and yet you can't find hint for a resurrected Pamela. Cheesy
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Do we really have to go over that a third time? It's not rocket science. Go watch the end of the original and then the scene with Chris. It's obvious what they were doing.

Yes, if we're going to discuss a fictional movie then you have to be able to support your view by what is shown in movie not what production may have intended. Go head and give your best explanation:
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Chris was terrorized by a man so why would she mention or have any knowledge about a lady in a lake unless she was attacked by Pamela as shown?

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I never said he did receive emergency medical care.

You're trying to have it both ways. Your supernatural fantasy is allowed to happen offscreen but anything that goes against it must have scenes to show it occurred.

I don't need links showing how he would've died. Since we cant recall scenes showing medical care, we also cant recall how serious or deep these wounds really were.

There were many scenes in 2-4 that showed Jason's supernatural healing and strength abilities. Do you really think a man could crush someone's skull with their bare hands or toss a man the size of Rick through a window? Go watch part 2 you can clearly seen the machete is well below Jason's collarbone that equals a sliced subclavavian artery. You never included any proof of anyone surviving a drop hanging or explained how the investigators failed to find Jason pulse with an axe in head. Each prove supernatural.
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Jameslofton
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« Reply #534 on: December 09, 2017, 06:10:00 PM »

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Why not just admit you were wrong instead of attempting to save face?
THis is where I jump off.

the discussion was tolerable for awhile but I'm not being talked down to.....especially over a goddamn fringe nerd fantasy. Go ahead and believe his mother is the killer in later sequels and whatever other nonsense you can conjure up. You'll provide a bit of comic relief to those around you who get the pleasure of hearing these theories.

We're now going in circles anyways.
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Necu25
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« Reply #535 on: December 10, 2017, 02:54:24 PM »

THis is where I jump off.

the discussion was tolerable for awhile but I'm not being talked down to.....especially over a goddamn fringe nerd fantasy. Go ahead and believe his mother is the killer in later sequels and whatever other nonsense you can conjure up. You'll provide a bit of comic relief to those around you who get the pleasure of hearing these theories.

We're now going in circles anyways.
I proved you were wrong with a link. If someone said to you that Jason's mask is pink I'm sure you'd try to prove them wrong. If you're unable to support your views and feel your only course of action is to forfeit the discussion fine, but don't suggest the idea it's because I was talking down to you.
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Jameslofton
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« Reply #536 on: December 12, 2017, 02:42:52 AM »

You didn't prove anything wrong.

I was "supporting my views"....which 99.9% of the world would agree with by the way.

Its not easy to have discussions with people who believe the ghost of a killer's mother is a murderer in later sequels when it was never even implied by the filmmakers.

I tried....

This is a really small community. Practically on life support. Another reason to just end it before the discussion winds up completely asinine.

I'll see ya in other threads I assume....unlesss that theory of yours is your bread and butter.
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Necu25
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« Reply #537 on: December 12, 2017, 04:14:00 PM »

You didn't prove anything wrong.

I was "supporting my views"....which 99.9% of the world would agree with by the way.

Its not easy to have discussions with people who believe the ghost of a killer's mother is a murderer in later sequels when it was never even implied by the filmmakers.

I tried....

This is a really small community. Practically on life support. Another reason to just end it before the discussion winds up completely asinine.

I'll see ya in other threads I assume....unlesss that theory of yours is your bread and butter.
I proved you wrong on supernatural vs paranormal and that Jason exhibited supernatural strength and healing abilities. You supported your views until I posted evidence that favored mine then you were ready to abandoned the discussion citing a silly excuse. That's far worse for the integrity of these threads than any fan theory. I actually like to hear other people's ideas and theories regarding the series and I'm sure others do as well.   
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